A Quandary and a Quagmire

[Arcazua]

I'm faced with some difficult times in terms of my World of Warcraft account. I have been with the same guild since the first day of retail. We aren't the most progressive guild on the server, but we've always moved forward even after times where we looked to be stagnant and stopped moving forward. Throughout these years (!), the depth of hunter talent in the guild has always been a bit lacking. While the faces have come and gone quite a bit over the years, there was rarely more than one other hunter I could regard as dependable and expect to represent the class well when I wasn't there for pulling or other miscellaneous duties. In the last 3 or 4 months, while I have been absent and my current "dependable" nominee has as well, the guild has done some recruiting and actually gotten some decent hunters.

OK, that's wonderful. But it also means that I'm expendable. And there's one other thing that has come and gone through the years -- raid loot systems -- that have always served to hold me back. I can recount the various versions of loot we've used in the past and how they've screwed me, but our current system (specifics are not important) states that in the event that a full member, an initiate and an inactive member all request an item, priority goes to the full member, then the initiate, then the inactive player even though we use a need/greed system, and one status' greed takes priority over another's need.

I understand why those rules are in place. I've been on the other end and watched somebody waltz in for one night every six months and try to loot stuff (and occasionally succeed.) However, in order to no longer be considered inactive, I have to maintain a 55% attendance over the preceding four weeks of raiding, and I take night classes on Tuesday and Thursday that preclude me from attending two of our four raid nights, which means best case scenario I'm looking at 50% attendance. 50 is less than 55...which means I'm always going to be "inactive."

Well, alright, I've been with the guild for such a long time, it'd be hard for me to break away and move on, and I've got enough else to deal with right now that I don't need to add one more thing to add to the list in looking for a new guild. Really, all that is about is loot, and I'd like to be able to say that I go with my guild for the experience of raiding rather than just getting phat lewtz...except that because our various loot systems have consistently worked against me since BC was released, purely due to circumstances, my gear is in a pretty sorry state of affairs compared to the rest of the guild, and I'm getting heavily out-performed by everyone else. I looked at the one raid I've attended since "returning," and my DPS was second-to-last in the raid among non-tanks, only edging out somebody's alt.

I use a survival spec, so ok I don't expect to be at the top of the list, but the margin I was behind everyone else was ridiculous, and I don't think hunter theorycraft has changed substantially in the last few months that I'm doing something wrong. I'm just being outgeared. I'm still wearing some dungeons blues -- six of them -- while having only three 25-man raid items. And no hope of improving on that.

I said something to one of the officers last night, who is going to consult with the others. However, I'm still not feeling good about everything. Essentially my choices boil down to:

1) Suck it up and hang in there, until the loot gap becomes wide enough somebody notices I'm so far behind everyone else that they can't justify my raid slot.
2) Play completely as a casual, and just log in to fool around. I've been playing WoW for so long now, though, that fooling around isn't something I cherish that much any more.
3) Find a new guild, if I can find it in myself to leave my current guild that I otherwise have no problems with, and figure out where there will be a guild that would be compatible with my needs and go through their application process.
4) Quit WoW altogether, or at least until July when my classes end. There are things to be said for this, I suppose, but I imagine Allakhazam wouldn't be too thrilled.

[Cheeky]

SInce you aren't there too often, why stay Survival for raiding? Your guild has obviously learned to succeed without Expose Weakness. Spec BM for better raid performance. One of the full-time Hunters should be the Survival Hunter, since then the guild can take better advantage of it.

I know you enjoy the Survival spec, but a raid doesn't ever need 2, and 50% attendence of one isn't a real help. Also, based on the gear descrepency your raid would find more benefit with one of the better geared Hunters (i.e. higher crit/Agility) providing the debuff.

Also, link a WWS. Maybe there is something you've forgotten or we've failed to inform you has changed in the prevailing Theory. Maybe you're fine and your guild is filled with some of the best DPSers in WoW.

[Kaelvanas]

Originally Posted by Cheeky

SInce you aren't there too often, why stay Survival for raiding? Your guild has obviously learned to succeed without Expose Weakness. Spec BM for better raid performance.

After barely beating the tanks on a Leotheras, I specced BM and have only fleetingly looked back. I miss a lot about SV spec, but having a pet that is an absolute monster makes up for a LOT.

I've been similarly relegated to inactive-land. Heck, I'd hoped to be able to present for our second Vashj kill tonight (The Company killed her this past weekend, it sounded fun over Vent), but now I suspect I won't be able to. :~( Being absolutely last in line for hunter upgrades (even vs the enhancement shaman who wants the same stuff) really hurts.

Have you considered Arena play? I'm thankful that I actually enjoy PvP, and have a teammate that's fun to work with. We're slowly clawing our way up to 1600.


/edit:
Yes, this sounds like a lot is "about loot". But, let's be honest: I think we ALL raid, at least a little bit, for the loot. I'd love to see Hyjal, Black Temple, etc, and would jump at it (if I could) even if I had no chance for loot, but at the same time never getting a chance to upgrade (while more active people get measurable but small upgrades) is severely disheartening. We had a GIGANTIC thread on raid loot distribution schemes in (I think?) December, but it started from something else and I don't remember what. (Search for suicide kings or DKP, though, and you'll likely find it.)

I'm realistic enough to realize that Kaelvanas is probably about as geared (PvE-wise) as he's ever going to be until next expansion's level 71 "Of the Pimp" greens are available. I will never see Sunwell, and I will almost certainly never see the later parts of Black Temple, merely because I am no longer part of the core raid team in my guild. (I'm just not hard-core enough, as I can only really play about 3 nights a week, farming/pvp included.) I used to stress out a ton about this, but now I've come to a "---- it, I don't care" realization, and instead have been either playing alts or PvPing. This is at least partly a "sour grapes" situation -- I do care that I won't see that, but there's really nothing I can do about it. Our guild has plenty of DPS classes that CAN and DO show up for 2x (or 3x?) as many raids as I do, and I'd be a hypocrite if I thought I had the same right to be in a raid as they do.

As for your DPS ... part of it is fight-knowledge-specific, IMO. Until you grok the fights, you won't do as well as someone who is more experienced. You may as well go the low-stress route and be BM. (Or, stay SV and don't stress about poor DPS.)

[Acronis]

Sounds like you need to have a one-on-one with the GL/RL and see what he/she has to say about it. Personally, I would suck it up until classes were done, then work back up with attendance. Either that, or just give up raiding altogether until you have the time for it.

I know it's tough because of the time you've invested in the guild already.

At the very least, sounds like this is an opportunity for you to evaluate whether waiting 6 months for gear priority is worth your time in the game anymore, or not. If you don't do anything that isn't raiding (more or less), then there's little keeping you around. Everyone has to make a tough decision like this at some point.

[Cheeky]

Originally Posted by Kaelvanas

(I'm just not hard-core enough, as I can only really play about 3 nights a week, farming/pvp included.)

There are raid guilds that raid 2/week. Havoc does Wednesday and Sunday nights 8 PM till 12 on Khadgar (East coast server.) I'm sure you could find similar guilds on every server. You won't see fast progression, but you'll get to raid and see upgrades.

[Pelao]

(WARNING, WALL OF TEXT INCOMING!!!!!)

Dear Arcazua:

I am going to be brutally honest with you so please don't get offended. First you have to figure out what it is you want out of the game and second, what do you want out of your hunter. There is no right or wrong answer for this. Everyone plays for a different reason and gets something different out of the time they invest in WoW.

Third, you must understand that despite your time in guild and your loyalty, when it comes down to a 25 or a 10 man raid, the most important factor for success should be what you bring to the group. In your case is primarily DPS. In order to be desired in a raid, you have to be top DPS at which hunters shine since they don't have to worry much about cc.

Fourth, I am believer that raid, epics, work and money and the loot system are very similar to an economic model. Given that we live in a capitalist system, I will use that model to put it in perspective. Imo, DKP should rule loot systems. It is in a way the best option for loot system because it rewards the individual with loot based on time, success, attendance and progression. It is also fair because eventually everyone gets their turn at an item. Therefore, if you put your time, you will get the loot, given you have the DKP points.

5th, the hunter class has changed significantly and the old way to hunter and DPS is now different. Shots rotation, mana consumption, expectations, utility are all factors which are now different. You must learn the new ways if you want to raid.

So here is my advice:
1) Define what you want to do? Casual, PvP, raid
2) If you want to raid, you have to put in the time and try to be the best at DPS
3) If you don't have time to raid, you can run heroics or PvP and you can get nice epics
4) If you want to DPS and raid, you must master your class. Here are a few pointers:

4.a) Get the best gear available, don't wait for the drop. Run heroics, PvP and do whatever it takes to get the best gear at your reach.
4.2) Get the best enchants and gems money can buy for your good gear. It makes a huge difference.
4.3) Respec BM. It is by far the best DPS hunter build at your gear level and learn how to be effective with it.
4.4) Learn shot rotations and use steady shot macros to DPS
4.5) learn to manage your pet and spec him appropriately for the instance you are running
4.6) Use the best ammo available to you
4.7) Use pots, food, etc to enhance your DPS
4.8) Be competitive, do whatever it takes to out DPS other hunters and classes w/o pulling agro and wiping the raid
4.9) be willing to hear advice from others and teach others.

Things not to do:

1) Demand loot based on loyalty and time in guild.
2) Demand loot or a raid spot based on friendship.
3) Expect something for nothing.
4) Dislike other hunters who are better than you or out DPS you. Engage them and learn from them. Compete with them and have fun at it.
5) Be jealous of their performance or if they are more desirable than you. There is a reason why they are and is usually not related to personality.
6) Leave your guild over loot, when you know that you are the reason you are not getting that spot or the loot u want.

Hope this helps a bit. You seem like a logical person who can take some criticism. I checked you out in the armory and your gear is not that bad. However, you do need to make some changes if you want to go to the next level of DPS. First I would try to respec, then put the best enchants and gems on ur gear. Next I would try to get the arena 1 range weapons and if possible do some arenas and get ur hands on the hunter axe.

Good luck,
Pelao

[Cheeky]

Originally Posted by Pelao

(WARNING, WALL OF TEXT INCOMING!!!!!)

Dear Arcazua:

<snipped>

Good luck,
Pelao

Pelao, you may not be aware of this, but Arcazua is as well versed as anyone in Hunter mechanics up till 2.3. He's not reactivating from a year ago.

Also your advice to be BM and get the S1 ranged weapon is a horrible combination. Really, truly horrible. As an Alliance character the Honor Hold Exalted weapon is much, much better for BM DPS.

I do agree 100% with your views on DKP and loot systems. We run a secret bid open DKP system with no drama in 10 months of use ourselves. Works great for high and low attendence players.

[Pelao]

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Also your advice to be BM and get the S1 ranged weapon is a horrible combination. Really, truly horrible. As an Alliance character the Honor Hold Exalted weapon is much, much better for BM DPS.

Right now he is using wolf slayer which some would argue is the best BM weapon. However I based my comment on weapon DPS and stats. According to the armory, you are right. The wolf slayer is placed fairly up in the list of range weapon upgrades above many DPS superior weapons. Not sure if the armory just gives you a list of possible upgrades or is it sorting them somehow. However, the wolf slayer is a 79.1 DPS, 15 Agility, 32 AP and the arena 1 weapon is 82.4 DPS, 12 crit and 26 AP. I am not that well informed in theorycraft but I would take an 82.4 DPS over a 79.1 DPS one.

You also state that BM and the arena range weapon is a bad combo. Can you explain why?

Also, I may have misinterpreted the original post. I took this statement: "my gear is in a pretty sorry state of affairs compared to the rest of the guild, and I'm getting heavily out-performed by everyone else. I looked at the one raid I've attended since "returning," and my DPS was second-to-last in the raid among non-tanks, only edging out somebody's alt." as a sign that perhaps he needed some advice on how to bring his DPS up. Also, after looking at his gear and his talents in the armory I also concluded that he may need some advice in that area. I apologize if I offered unrequested advice.

Pelao

[Kaelvanas]

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Pelao, you may not be aware of this, but Arcazua is as well versed as anyone in Hunter mechanics up till 2.3. He's not reactivating from a year ago.

Heh ... I was about to post this exact thing. Pelao, you may want to look at the early posts of AEP and AEP2, where Arcazua earned his Mathmagician title quite handily. I'd be VERY surprised if there were any mechanics that had changed since he last played (short of the broken traps which they just fixed, or the improved Viper aspect).

You also state that BM and the arena range weapon is a bad combo. Can you explain why?

Arena weapon has high listed DPS, but has a very slow speed. This makes it very poor for a steady/auto rotation. A tight steady/auto rotation is a CORE strength of BM DPS, and the Wolfslayer is quite good for that. (Now, for SW or MM, the S1/S2 weapons might be pretty decent ... but I believe most research indicates that they are just a little bit too slow even for MM/SV specs compared to a Wolfslayer or other slightly faster weapon.)

[Sophea]

Originally Posted by Pelao

Right now he is using wolf slayer which some would argue is the best BM weapon. However I based my comment on weapon DPS and stats. According to the armory, you are right. The wolf slayer is placed fairly up in the list of range weapon upgrades above many DPS superior weapons. Not sure if the armory just gives you a list of possible upgrades or is it sorting them somehow. However, the wolf slayer is a 79.1 DPS, 15 Agility, 32 AP and the arena 1 weapon is 82.4 DPS, 12 crit and 26 AP. I am not that well informed in theorycraft but I would take an 82.4 DPS over a 79.1 DPS one.

Ignore that DPS number. It doesn't mean all that you think it does.

The important thing for hunters is the speed of our weapons. As a BM, the Don Santos and the Wolf Sniper tend to be the top performers. (I know there are better weapons, but not seen as frequently.) As MM, the Sunfury seems to be the favorite.

This is about theory crafting that has actually been put into practice successfully. What does that mean? Well with a 1:1 rotation (which a BM should be doing), and the haste effects, he'll clip the hell out of his autoshots (thereby losing valuable dps) if he uses the S1 bow.

The hardest thing I ever had to learn as a hunter, was to disregard the game tooltips. Instead I rely on Cheeky's Spreadsheet and RatingsBuster to get me through the need to study that tooltip. Overall, it's not the damage on the weapon I need to worry about, it's the speed of the weapon, my shots and rotation and gear will make up for the perceived lack of damage. If I didn't use a rotation, then I probably wouldn't care about my weapon speed, but then I would be losing a good 40% of my damage - if not more.