Scaling by spec

Cheeky · 09-28-2007, 11:08 AM

There is a lot of talk on the offical Hunter forums about how once you get into T5/6 content that MM "scales" better than BM and becomes a better raiding spec. I've always been dubious of those claims, but MM/BM is a religious war I avoid on the official forums.

But, my spreadsheet now tells you how much each stat helps in terms of DPS for your spec/gear, so I figured why not kill an hour while waiting on a massive compile to put the myth to the test? I'm not going to post this on the official forums because I don't want to deal with the insane amounts of crap people would add. TKA is a bit more "enlightened" in handling arguments.

I'll present all the data, and what I also saw playing around. A summary at the end.

Caveats:
1 - This is based of the math and models in my spreadsheet being correct. If you already think they are wrong, then please stop and read another thread. There will be nothing to interest you here.

2 - Stand-still DPS. No movement, no breaks, no mana issues.

3 - Level 73 target with 35% armor reduction.

4 - Race is Troll (I had to pick one, and I got halfway through before realizing I picked one with an applicable racial bonus. Oh well.)

5 - Latency is 0.2s (mine)

6 - The following raid buffs were used: Kings, Might, LotP, AB, GotW (Improved 5/5), Agility Scroll, Agility food, Elixir of Major Agility.

7 - BM used a 1:1, replacement rotation. MM used a 1:1.5 without IAotH.

8 - Cookie cutter talent specs 41/20/0 and 0/4x/y were used.

Gear sets (I picked gems that made the most sense. Not always the same between specs):

Code:

Slot                Tier 4                Tier 5                   Tier 6
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee               Legacy                 Twinblade         Halbard of Desol
Head                Demon Stalker          Rift Stalker      Gronnstalker
Neck                Worgen's Claw          Choker of Fury    Endless Nightmares
Shoulders           Demon Stalker          Rift Stalker      Gronnstalker
Back                Vengeance Wrap         Thalassian        Shadowmoon Destro
Chest               Demon Stalker          Rift Stalker      Gronnstalker
Wrist               Stalker's War Bands    Celestial Archer  Percise Flight
Hands               Demon Stalker          Rift Stalker      Gronnstalker
Waist               Girdle of the Prowler  Black Eagle       Boneweave
Legs                Demon Stalker          Rift Stalker      Gronnstalker
Feet                Fiend Slayer Boots     Cobra-Lash        Quickstrider
Ring                Garona's Signet        Lethality         Eternity
Ring                Ring of Marks          Ring of Marks     Lethality
Trinket             Hourglass              Tsunami Talis     Madness Betrayer
Trinket             Bloodlust              Bloodlust         Ashtongue
BM Weapon           Wolfslayer             Wolfslayer        Wolfslayer
MM Weapon           Sunfury                Serpentspine      Betrayer

First set of information, basic stats:

Code:

                   Tier 4         Tier 5        Tier 6
                 BM      MM      BM     MM     BM     MM 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Health          8824    8404    9587   9130   9910   9438
Mana            8614    8945    8499   8822   8812   9155
Armor           6827    6856    7455   7408   8063   8096
Tooltip RAP     2212    2780    2440   2991   2551   3148
Tooltip Crit   34.35%  34.52%  39.26% 39.51% 41.22% 41.22%
Hunter DPS      1004    1030    1088   1171   1175   1264
Pet DPS          317     191     327    197    333    200
Total           1321    1221    1415   1367   1508   1464

And what you'd see based on one more of each stat:

Code:

              Tier 4        Tier 5           Tier 6
Stat        BM      MM    BM      MM       BM    MM
------------------------------------------------------
Agility   +0.560  +0.542  +0.570 +0.573  +0.587 +0.596
AP        +0.260  +0.235  +0.265 +0.251  +0.277 +0.259
Crit      +0.450  +0.448  +0.458 +0.469  +0.465 +0.491
Hit       +0.438  +0.000  +0.452 +0.000  +0.000 +0.000
Int       +0.000  +0.123  +0.000 +0.132  +0.000 +0.136

First Conclusions:
Well, they are right that MM starts to scale better at higher gear levels. But this is 100% due to the fact that the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle remains the best BM weapon in a 1:1 rotation for the gear listed. Not being able to upgrade your ranged weapon is a bit of a problem. You'll also notice that pet scaling is really pretty poor. You don't even see a +10% gain from T4 to T6. Tier 5 gear seems to be the biggest jump for MM spec, and that's because you can really take advantage of the powerful, slower weapons.

Also, Agility starts off being the best stat, and only gets better as gearing improves. While this isn't a surprise to anyone that's done some number crunching I was impressed on how quickly it leaves everything else behind. (I specifically avoided haste so far.)

BM and it's saving grace statistic
I then said, "Well fuck, if BM is getting punished by how slow the weapons are, what if we speed them up?" and made the following gear substitutions:
Black Bow of the Betrayer
Dragonspine Trophy
Fists of Mukoa
Bindings of Lightning Reflexes

Here are the results:

Code:

Health          9968
Mana            8548
Armor           7983
Tooltip RAP     2478
Tooltip Crit   37.46%
Hunter DPS      1236
Pet DPS          330
Total           1566

Scaling for the BM/Haste build:
Agility +0.619
AP      +0.283
Crit    +0.507
Hit     +0.000
Int     +0.000
Haste   +0.517

Whoa! BM just picked up its same advantage it enjoyed in T4 gear, and the Hunter himself isn't doing too much less damage (2.2%) than the MM Hunter in pet-unfriendly fights. And if you look at the scaling numbers, that gets better and better as you gear up in Sunwell and beyond.

So I think (barring a mechanics change) I'm going to stay BM while raiding and salivate over the slower weapons and haste gear. (And I need to get a DST now, to bank for 6 months from now when I'm well into BT.) With a 1:1.5 rotation, MM specs see little benefit from haste, the weapons are just perfect for the rotation right now.

Please feel free to critque my method or results. I didn't spend the time to check each and every piece of gear available at each level, there may be better combinations that I ignored. I think this is a good baseline to use. I may post more conclusions as I think about this more.

09-28-2007, 11:08 AM	#1
Cheeky Spreadsheet Troll No WoW Account	Scaling by spec There is a lot of talk on the offical Hunter forums about how once you get into T5/6 content that MM "scales" better than BM and becomes a better raiding spec. I've always been dubious of those claims, but MM/BM is a religious war I avoid on the official forums. But, my spreadsheet now tells you how much each stat helps in terms of DPS for your spec/gear, so I figured why not kill an hour while waiting on a massive compile to put the myth to the test? I'm not going to post this on the official forums because I don't want to deal with the insane amounts of crap people would add. TKA is a bit more "enlightened" in handling arguments. I'll present all the data, and what I also saw playing around. A summary at the end. Caveats: 1 - This is based of the math and models in my spreadsheet being correct. If you already think they are wrong, then please stop and read another thread. There will be nothing to interest you here. 2 - Stand-still DPS. No movement, no breaks, no mana issues. 3 - Level 73 target with 35% armor reduction. 4 - Race is Troll (I had to pick one, and I got halfway through before realizing I picked one with an applicable racial bonus. Oh well.) 5 - Latency is 0.2s (mine) 6 - The following raid buffs were used: Kings, Might, LotP, AB, GotW (Improved 5/5), Agility Scroll, Agility food, Elixir of Major Agility. 7 - BM used a 1:1, replacement rotation. MM used a 1:1.5 without IAotH. 8 - Cookie cutter talent specs 41/20/0 and 0/4x/y were used. Gear sets (I picked gems that made the most sense. Not always the same between specs): Code: Slot Tier 4 Tier 5 Tier 6 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Melee Legacy Twinblade Halbard of Desol Head Demon Stalker Rift Stalker Gronnstalker Neck Worgen's Claw Choker of Fury Endless Nightmares Shoulders Demon Stalker Rift Stalker Gronnstalker Back Vengeance Wrap Thalassian Shadowmoon Destro Chest Demon Stalker Rift Stalker Gronnstalker Wrist Stalker's War Bands Celestial Archer Percise Flight Hands Demon Stalker Rift Stalker Gronnstalker Waist Girdle of the Prowler Black Eagle Boneweave Legs Demon Stalker Rift Stalker Gronnstalker Feet Fiend Slayer Boots Cobra-Lash Quickstrider Ring Garona's Signet Lethality Eternity Ring Ring of Marks Ring of Marks Lethality Trinket Hourglass Tsunami Talis Madness Betrayer Trinket Bloodlust Bloodlust Ashtongue BM Weapon Wolfslayer Wolfslayer Wolfslayer MM Weapon Sunfury Serpentspine Betrayer First set of information, basic stats: Code: Tier 4 Tier 5 Tier 6 BM MM BM MM BM MM --------------------------------------------------------------- Health 8824 8404 9587 9130 9910 9438 Mana 8614 8945 8499 8822 8812 9155 Armor 6827 6856 7455 7408 8063 8096 Tooltip RAP 2212 2780 2440 2991 2551 3148 Tooltip Crit 34.35% 34.52% 39.26% 39.51% 41.22% 41.22% Hunter DPS 1004 1030 1088 1171 1175 1264 Pet DPS 317 191 327 197 333 200 Total 1321 1221 1415 1367 1508 1464 And what you'd see based on one more of each stat: Code: Tier 4 Tier 5 Tier 6 Stat BM MM BM MM BM MM ------------------------------------------------------ Agility +0.560 +0.542 +0.570 +0.573 +0.587 +0.596 AP +0.260 +0.235 +0.265 +0.251 +0.277 +0.259 Crit +0.450 +0.448 +0.458 +0.469 +0.465 +0.491 Hit +0.438 +0.000 +0.452 +0.000 +0.000 +0.000 Int +0.000 +0.123 +0.000 +0.132 +0.000 +0.136 First Conclusions: Well, they are right that MM starts to scale better at higher gear levels. But this is 100% due to the fact that the Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle remains the best BM weapon in a 1:1 rotation for the gear listed. Not being able to upgrade your ranged weapon is a bit of a problem. You'll also notice that pet scaling is really pretty poor. You don't even see a +10% gain from T4 to T6. Tier 5 gear seems to be the biggest jump for MM spec, and that's because you can really take advantage of the powerful, slower weapons. Also, Agility starts off being the best stat, and only gets better as gearing improves. While this isn't a surprise to anyone that's done some number crunching I was impressed on how quickly it leaves everything else behind. (I specifically avoided haste so far.) BM and it's saving grace statistic I then said, "Well fuck, if BM is getting punished by how slow the weapons are, what if we speed them up?" and made the following gear substitutions: Black Bow of the Betrayer Dragonspine Trophy Fists of Mukoa Bindings of Lightning Reflexes Here are the results: Code: Health 9968 Mana 8548 Armor 7983 Tooltip RAP 2478 Tooltip Crit 37.46% Hunter DPS 1236 Pet DPS 330 Total 1566 Scaling for the BM/Haste build: Agility +0.619 AP +0.283 Crit +0.507 Hit +0.000 Int +0.000 Haste +0.517 Whoa! BM just picked up its same advantage it enjoyed in T4 gear, and the Hunter himself isn't doing too much less damage (2.2%) than the MM Hunter in pet-unfriendly fights. And if you look at the scaling numbers, that gets better and better as you gear up in Sunwell and beyond. So I think (barring a mechanics change) I'm going to stay BM while raiding and salivate over the slower weapons and haste gear. (And I need to get a DST now, to bank for 6 months from now when I'm well into BT.) With a 1:1.5 rotation, MM specs see little benefit from haste, the weapons are just perfect for the rotation right now. Please feel free to critque my method or results. I didn't spend the time to check each and every piece of gear available at each level, there may be better combinations that I ignored. I think this is a good baseline to use. I may post more conclusions as I think about this more. __________________ Bastard Emeritus

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